Me myself and I

(if only the response bit allows more characters in a post
anyway, her post can be found at http://www.livejournal.com/users/dlgood/2318.html?view=18702 )

Ah, so you find it a good positive message to show that it's okay for a woman to rape, abuse and destroy a man. Cause hey when a woman does it it's a sign of empowerment?

Nice message to show to young boys and men around the world... if your girlfriend beats you up and abuses you, it's ok, and normal, cause it makes her a strong and empowered woman?

I'm a spuffy, unashamedly so, because unlike Angel, Spike 'chose' his punishment. It's not the soul that's important, it's the fact that he realized he was wrong and went to get his soul out of 'free choice' because he wanted to be 'the kind of man that would never...'

Spike realized he did the one thing he could never forgive himself for and 'chose' to change.

Something Angel nor Xander did after their rapes or in Xander's case, attempted rape(see the Pack)

Remember how in gone Buffy raped Spike, or tried to?
I'm not so much talking about the throwing him to a wall and starting to have sex with him before he could even realize it was her. I'm talking about after he said a clear "NO" and she still continued, despite her greater physical strenght.

And he had to throw her out of his crypt, the sanctity of his own home? Remember how she pouted about how he'd had the guts to throw her out. Not even the slightest realization of what she'd just done. And compare that to Spike's reaction in Seeing Red...

For that alone I'd be willing to forgive him because at least Spike understood what he did wrong and tried to 'change' to become a better person who'd never harm her again.

I believe Joss handled the post-rape situation pretty decently, though the mistake he made was not handling Buffy's past as an abuser. She was never forced to deal with her crimes, never confronted by anyone to how she did wrong.
And yes she did.

You said that rape's about power...
Not in Seeing Red...
Spike's actions weren't premeditated, they weren't to give him power. Hell the entire 'relationship' that Buffy forced them into proved that Buffy held all the cards, all the power.
If the relationship stayed in the dark, that's cause Buffy wanted it so.

You wonder about Buffy's individual wishes to love or not love Spike? What about Spike's individual wishes and desires? Cause those were ignored all through season six and seven.

Rape is a serious situation, and I believe that Spike was capable of it in the past, but so's Angel...
(remember Drusilla, Holtz's wife, the gypsy girl whom Angel had the guts to call stupid (sorry, just watched 'Angel' and still furious with him over that)...)
But unlike Angel, Spike realized what he did was wrong in Seeing Red. Spike started a voluntary change, because once Buffy kicked him back, the humanity in him was strong enough to make him come to his senses and realize what he was doing and stop.

Yes stop. If Buffy was supposedly so weakened at that point, then Spike could have tried again. If that had been Angelus in the room, he would have gone on, no matter how Buffy tried to fight. Spike on the other hand hated himself almost the second he hit the wall and started having flashbacks to his own actions. Feeling guilt. Something a soulless vampire is supposed to be incapable of.

The trials of the ensoulment aren't important, they're not what mattered which is why we were shown so little of them. It's the choice that mattered.

A choice Angel has never been capable of making.

Then compare post ensoulment. Spike nearly destroys himself in his guilt over what he did to Buffy and others...
When he finally finds himself killing again, he begs Buffy to slay him as not to do it again.
Compare this to Angel who continued killing criminals after he got his soul. And tried to rejoin Darla.

After ensoulment, Spike may have leaned on Buffy for a while, but he understood her free choice and stopped trying untill she showed him mixed signals. Look at First Date, it hurts him, but he's willing to leave her be happy with someone else. It's only because she asks him to stay, that he does.
(something Angel never bothers with, to Angel apparantly Buffy's free will isn't important enough to give her a say in anything he does)

In touched, Spike is willing to leave the house and leave Buffy to her peace. Then when she asks him to stay (again), he's willing to sleep on the couch. She once again says no and asks him to sleep next to her and hold her. It's only then that he lays down next to her.

All of Season seven is overblown with showing how much guilt Spike shows towards what he did to Buffy. I can't see him showing any more restraint than he does.
(he sure showed more genuine guilt that Angel ever did. And I'm not talking over Angel's bouts of self pity. )
Compare this to Angel's behavior in Forever where he can't even stay with Buffy for more than a few minutes out of fear that he'll want to have sex with her.

When I think of what should keep Buffy and Spike apart, I'm not thinking about Spike's actions. I'm thinking about Buffy and how she never coughs up to her friends about her abuse, her rape of Spike, her beating him up, her neglect, her.... About how she angs on to an idealized dreamimage of a relationship she had in the past and refuses herself to love anyone else.

I'm a Buffy fan, up till season five she was the person I admired most. But in season six she's the abuser, the criminal, the wrong doer. Spike had an excuse, Buffy didn't. And she NEVER admitted this to anyone other than a vamp she was gonna stake anyway.

I may forgive Spike for his actions, because he showed guilt over them, I was not all that willing to do the same for Buffy untill she officially admitted her wrongs. CWDP with her admitting was a nice start, but it shouldn't have been the end of it.

But then to ME it's an example of a strong woman to say that a woman is allowed to use a man who loves her for sex. For ME it's ok for a woman like Willow to rape her girlfriend, cause hey it's just a woman right? For ME it's ok for Xander to try and overpower and rape Buffy cause hey, he's a scooby, and if he wants to forget all about it, that's ok.

Look at the gender issues in season six... Try and reverse them, and then see who was the victim,... You'll easily find it was Spike. Not Buffy, no matter how much the writers later on try and make her into one.

This is something I've been wondering about every single time that
someone mentions this term. Why should the core four be more
important than any other character on the show? Someone please
explain, cause I sure don't understand it.

Yes I like Xander, I love Buffy, can't stand Willow and don't really
mind Giles but I've never seen them as more important than other
members of the cast.

Maybe it's because I've never been a original part of a group, maybe
it's that I've always been the hanger on, but I really despise that
tendency to think that someone matters more because they were there
originally.

I prefer Spike over Xander, think SMG is much more interesting as
Buffy than Kristy Swanson (or however you spell that) was, I prefer
Wesley over Giles, think that Spike is more intersting both souled
and unsouled than Angel. I care a thousand times more for Tara than I
ever did for Willow and last but not least... I'd much rather would
have seen Xander die in Chosen, than Anya.
And no, I still love Xander, I just feel that his death would have
been more in place than Anya's.

Original is not necesserily better. Just cause something came first
doesn't mean something better can't follow it up.

When someone says they should have focussed more on the 'core four' I
keep thinking why?
Sure they could have shown more Willow, but they showed her, just not
in the right way. I'm still waiting for her to show any regret for
raping Tara's mind. Or actual guilt for trying to kill her friends
and attempting to destroy the world. Instead she was re-accepted way
too soon, never actually forced to bear the consequences of her
actions.

They could have done more with Xander, but the problem was that they
gave all the lines that could have made Xander interesting to Andrew.
They could have used Giles, instead they gave us a Giles-bot that
showed no emotion, didn't even seem to care about the practical
miracle they had amongst them. (I mean a vampire that willingly chose
good over evil, the least he could have done was shown some interest.
Instead of just having Giles be the disaproving father. Yet we were
never shown any sign from Giles that a vampire willingly choosing to
get a soul was even considered odd. If you see the scooby's
reactions, then you'd have to believe that vamps go out to get a soul
every day.)

Honestly, imagine this, if they hadn't been so strict with the 'no-
core scooby can die'-rule then Warren could have killed Xander, for
whom they apparantly couldn't seem to find any story for anyway.
(unless you're interested in the exciting world of window repair)
Willow could have gone crazy in revenge for the killing of her best
friend/semi-brother. Xander would have had a major death from
something totally unexpected. No lesbian cliché-shit. Tara could have
talked Willow down. And instead of the non-chemistry of
Willow/Kennedy we oculd have had Tara helping Willow get over her
guilt for killing Warren.

Most of all Xander would have gone out with a bang, he would be
remembered as one of the best chars on the show, instead of with the
sisser of a story where I was basically bored with almost every scene
he had since they couldn't seem to find anything for him to do anyway.
And I'm saying this as a major Xander-fan.
Hell imagine the impact on any of the scoobies if they'd had to deal
with the First masquerading as Xander... Total heartache on the
viewers as well as the chars. And we all know that Nick Brendan is
great at playing evil.

Or if Giles had died in Sleeper... The whole no-touching nonsense
would have meant something. Giles utterely stupid behavior would have
made sense. Just imagine the impact of the First taking Giles form
and using Buffy's feelings for Giles against her.
But of course, you can't kill a core scooby.

Just imagine the sense of finality the showender would have had if
Xander, the socalled heart of the scoobies had died in Chosen...
Where as Anya's death seemed to get completely ignored, blink and you
miss and all that.

Honestly, if I hadn't known up ahead that Spike would die in Chosen
and that he'd be on Angel next year, the end of Chosen would have
made me refuse to ever watch an ep written by Joss or any other
member of ME for any show ever again. After Chosen, for a long time I
no longer cared for a single surviving character other than Buffy.
Seeing as how Joss made it clear that the chars didn't care for
anyone outside their core clique surviving. (Sorry, even over a month
later, I still don't see any of them giving a damn that Anya and
Spike, two people they all knew closely, just died)
Joss could have given us a single tear coming down from Xander's
face, some sign that they cared, he didn't.
So if they don't give a damn, why should I care for them?

Maybe the reason that I don't see Chosen as having a happy ending, is
because basically, no matter how I turn or twist it, it plainly just
wasn't.
Buffy didn't save the day. She and the other slayers just helped hold
of the ubervamps till Spike's amulet started working. Xander, Anya,
Dawn, Wood Andrew and Giles didn't need to be there, or they could
have been better armed. Hell why weren't they waiting outside ready
to kill the ubervamps from a safe position?
Was it so hard to have them know what the amulet would do beforehand?
Hell Spike's sacrifice could have meant so much more if they'd known
it could kill the bearer and Spike still accepted to wear it.
Hell they could have even included some sign of recognition from
Giles or Xander. Some sign that they realized how much Spike had
changed. Instead Spike and we got the idea that other than Buffy
noone gave a damn about him. Something that really made me dislike
the scoobies.

Honestly, if it hadn't been for the amulet, something they didn't
even know about, Buffy's own actions in opening the Hellmouth could
have destroyed the world. If it hadn't been for the amulet, the new
Slayers and everyone else there still wouldn't have been enough to
stop the army of ubervamps. They all would have died, pointlessly.

Yet we're still expected to see this as a feminist victory, to me it
wasn't.

And don't let me even start on the fence sitting concerning B/A and
B/S. Joss had a perfect chance to end B/A once and for all. To give
Angel a clean start and leave him free on his own show. Instead we
got the most humiliating kiss on Buffy ever. And I do mean
humiliating. Angel's spent two years crushing on Cordy and all of a
sudden now that he can't have her he's back with Buffy? Sorry, not
buying it. To me that kiss felt like the guy that keeps a girl on
retainer, so that if he can't have his first choice, he'll have
another on hand. And I hate to see Buffy as second choice in anything.
Probably the reason why I prefer B/S, Angel has made it clear that he
was over Buffy, having him suddenly switch modes, just cause he comes
back feels stupid and out of character, considering his behavior on
his own show.

Honestly, right now if Buffy ever shows up on Angel, I want to see
her with a new partner. Even if we don't see him, I want to hear her
mention that she has someone new. If ME won't give us B/S then I'd
prefer anything and I do mean anything over B/A.

I could deal if Buffy couldn't fall in love with Spike. I would think
she was stupid for throwing away the best looking, most loving guy
any woman could wish for, but I could accept it. Especially if it
meant that Spike could fall in love with someone that finally could
love him back. Someone that was worthy of him. But I'd be embarrassed
and ashamed for Buffy's sake if she ever ended up with Angel again.
Sorry, Angel's beneath her and the sooner she realizes that the
better for her.

Hell I've always seen Buffy and Xander as brother and sister, but
right now I'd even prefer Buffy/Xander over B/A and that's saying
something.

Sorry, end of rant.

Lore

I'd been wondering for a while.
When I first started to watch Buffy, I mainly did so cause I'd read some Buffy crossovers and I enjoyed the idea of a vampire and a Slayer in love...
And for a few seaons, I actually liked the idea of B/A.
As Buffy became my favorite character, I wanted her to be happy, I wanted her to be with the person she loved.

A strange thing though, much as I liked B/A for Buffy's sake, I just couldn't seem to find a reason to like it for Angel's sake. The more I saw of Angel... the less I became interested in the char shown on the show and the more the potential of the char beckoned to me...

Honestly, it wasn't until season five that the potential of Angel was fullfilled, not through Angel strangely enough but through Spike.

Everything that Angel could have, should have been was done through an actor with a much broader range than David Boreanaz ever had. Yeah I know, opinions, subjective by nature, but the thing is that it's unavoidable that James Marsters is a way better actor than DB could ever hope to be. No matter how much DB has improved over the past few years.

I kept trying to like Angel though. I kept trying to see the appeal of him, to enjoy the show for his sake, and for a while I succeeded, halfly. Yet the longer Angel the Series went on, the less I liked Angel and looking back on Buffy as a show, I can't really say I like the Angel we were shown there much either.

I still can't stand to see Angel with anyone but Buffy. Yet it's not because I want him and Buffy together, far from it, but because I can't stand to see him get over Buffy so easily. Actually seeing him with Cordelia pretty much destroyed my last bit of respect for the character, not that I had much left by that point.

I wondered why that was for a while...
Both Spike and Angel are vampires, they're both on a path of redemption and they're both fighting for the side of good.
So what was it about the both of them that made me love Spike and hate Angel?

Then I found this article:
http://www.the-buzz.com/b_7_21b.html

Now I'm not gonna claim it's perfect. It isn't, but it does solve some serious issues of mine.

Let's see, what I think is wrong about it, is that it doesn't give much if any credit to Angel at all... I can't stand the guy, but even I can see that not all his intentions were selfish.

Other than that...
Maybe this article doesn't mention the one thing that really marks the difference between the two. Their role in their respective groups. And how the people around them see them...
Well that and the fact that I really don't think that David Boreanaz is attractive, so sue me... he's just too ... neandertalish for my taste.

I recently read a fic that descibed Angel as the popular football guy that every man wants to be and every woman (supposedly) wants to be with.
And I think that isn't that far off.
Angel's mister popular. All the girls are in love with him... All his friends see him as the great hero, the champion. Sure they fear the part of him that's Angelus, but most of the time they refuse to really aknowledge that Angelus and Angel are actually the same person...

Compared to that we got Spike...
Probably the most fascinating char on tv, for his contradictions alone.

Spike came on in season two as mister cool. The Billy Idol rebel without a cause out for destruction. And though he was fun, he never really interested me all that much, because he was limited. Sure he had a love for Dru which put him above practically any big bad on the show. But other than that I personally wasn't really all that interested in him.

I liked Becoming, it was nice to see glimpses that Spike could be more, that the whole issue with vampires on Buffy didn't have to be black and white. That there could be more with him. Something only confirmed even more when he returned in season three with Lover's Walk.

But I didn't really start liking the character untill season four. The turningpoint for this character as he became the outcast. First by choice, then forced into it...

Maybe it's my fascination for outsiders, my love for characters on a path of redemption... I just loved how we came to realize that Spike's mask of the big bad was nothing more than a pretense to hide his inner William.
I love how underneath all the swagger Spike was still that geeky poet desperate to belong, desperate to be loved.

It's strange really how many right choices that Spike made, being a soulless demon and all. How many times he could have gone wrong, done something, anything to stop his road to redemption and how often even his mistakes forced him even stronger on the way to become not a champion, but a hero.

I can only compare it to Methos from Highlander.
(just skip this for anyone that doesn't know the show Highlander ;-) )

A better devellopped Methos that we actually get to see the growth off. We get to see what it must have been like for Methos to go from being one of the Four Horsemen, to the guy that actually became friends with Duncan MacLeod and in his own way, grew up to become a better person.

Spike is like an acrobat made to walk a thin cord over a ravine, blindfolded, without any form of support. He sometimes stumbled, he made mistakes, but in the end he made it...
Not because he had a lot of friends to help him over it...Aside of Dawn for a while, he didn't really have anyone, not untill the end when Buffy offered him her hand for the last part of the journey.

Compared to that Angel seems weak.
Where Spike made the effort to change, to become a better demon, to become a man, a good man. Angel just made the effort to become a champion. And personally I don't like champions, they fall from their socles to easily.

Like Spike said. He may not be the champion of the people, but he was ready to offer a hand, for no other reason than that he had nothing better to do.

When I see Buffy and Angel together, I see a young woman and the grown man who emotionally destroyed her and then left her to deal with the pieces, returning just often enough to break her apart again every time she started to heal.

With Spike, I see her chance for redemption, a chance for her to find herself and to discover that happiness is not about white knights and children's fairy tales, but about a love that noone can break. About perseverance, about frienship and about passion.
Buffy and Spike have that and more...
Just my opinion of course...